Visitor Comments & Messages

Site visitor comments & messages ...

	[In reply to Malcolm's comment] Hello Malcolm, Thank you for your constructive comment Malcolm. I am delighted you are interested in our project and appreciate the important point you make. I have broadly mentioned about our intention to modify various areas on our disclosure page: Hartley TS21 Modifications. I doubt I would be able to cover everything but here is a list of most: 1. The use of 9.5mm marine ply instead of 8mm as mentioned in the plans. 2. The use of Epoxy glue, coatings, glass matting and Epoxy encapsulation processes etc., which are not mentioned in the plans. 3. The use of 316 grade stainless steel through-bolts in the keel as opposed to screws. 4. The use of 316 stainless steel screws instead of copper as mentioned in plans. 4. 20mm thick steel swing keel plate instead of the 5/8" as in the plans. 5. Wider seats and addition of a small bridge deck. 6. Raised cockpit floor - making it self draining. 7. Increased the distance between each frame by a fixed % making the vessel slightly but precisely to scale longer. 8. Frame 7 wider by 10mm, frame 8 wider by 20mm, frame 9 wider by 30mm and transom wider by 40mm. 9. Raised the height of the sides of hull up by 30mm. 10. Distance between cabin side and side of hull increased by 60mm to give more foot room. 11. Cabin sides are shaped to mirror the curvature of hull. 10. Triangular 9.5mm marine ply supporting gussets under side decks instead of small single timber pieces. 11. Small self draining anchor locker built into forward deck. 12. A total of .3 cubic meter of closed cell buoyancy foam aft, bow and under side decks - the vessel achieves an "unsinkable" rating. 13. Larger supporting timber and additional supports for centre case. 14. Monster 1" diameter 316 stainless steel swing keel plate pivot bolt. Best regards Peter
By: Peter | Date: Nov 1, 2010 | MyTrailerSailer

	Hi, We now own a beautiful and well built 18 foot half cabin sailer, I don't think it is a Hartley but it looks very similar. Where do the Hartley owners get their trailers from? Ours is unroadworthy and needs to be replaced. Any suggestions? Thanks Clark
By: Clark | Date: Nov 1, 2010 |

	Greetings, Your project is one of the best presented projects of its type I have seen on the internet and I congratulate you. However, I do not believe you are being completely honest in what you are presenting as a "Hartley TS21". I am very familiar with the Hartley TS21 having managed the construction of a number of them and as a measurer in New Zealand during the period from 1974 to 1992. I have scaled the images of your hull and am certain it is longer than 21'. On my calculations it is well over 22' . Is this correct? Further to this your freeboard appears to be a little higher and the image of her being turned over also suggests she could be fractionally wider towards the aft, but this is harder to calculate due to the distortion caused by the camera lens and the angles you take those images on. As a retired navel architect I would have no trouble approving the range of modifications you have made and disclosed on your web site. It is clear to me these have been well thought out. I am particularly pleased to see a heavier centre plate being installed. Installing heavier plates was a popular modification in N.Z. when these yachts were at their peak and came with the approval of the yacht's designer, Mr Richard Hartley. However, my feeling is you have a responsibility to be more thorough in disclosing correct measurements of the yacht you are building considering its significance. Thank you for your consideration of my comment and I give you permission to publish this should you wish. Malcolm N.Z.
By: Malcolm | Date: Oct 31, 2010 |

	For Bill, I fully agree with your comments and advice. On that score in 1976 having previously built and sold the T.S.16, T.S.18 and T.S.21 I wondered where to go next. Encouraged by my workmates, I designed my own, based on experienced with hired yachts in the U.K., Norfolk Broads etc. from 1958 - 1975. I came up with the "Water Line 21" in 1976. A detailed article (2 pages) appeared in "Australian Boating" Nov. 1977. Also on public display at the Herald Sail Boat Show '79 in Melbourne and also appearing as a 3 page article in Australian Seacraft" Feb 1978. Customers asked for a 23' version which led to greater numbers home built plus approx 3 boats per year being built by the metalucious late Eric Gent, professional boat builder. Later, after early retirement in 1980 I decided in 1985 to design one more boat. Although along similar lines, a much improved "Waterway 23". Easier and quicker to build, with single rounded chines and a "Claytons step" cabin roof. Ongoing "tweaking" has led to much improvement. But if you want to go to all the work and expense of building, the plans to the "Waterway 23" will only cost you what it costs me to get them printed and posted to you. However the building guide supplied with previous plans, is now plus all the articles written since to cover trailer sailers in general. - "The Trailable Yacht Companion Waterway to Windward". Look at Peters web-site. However, I strongly advise that before committing to any trailer sailer building or otherwise at least be informed before choosing. Best wishes Des Webb P.S. The cost of the "The Trailable Yacht Companion Waterway to Windward" book which you can buy could save you thousands spent unnecessarily.
By: Des Webb | Date: Oct 31, 2010 |

	Hello, Your Hartley is going to be a nice boat when finished. I would not be surprised if a 21 has not been built from scratch for over 20 years. You can't get decent ones second hand any more, they are either too ancient or they have been built in backyards by amateurs where the build quality is pathetic at best, dangerous at worst. All up a great project to pro build the half century edition one. Would you ever consider selling?
By: GoldCoastMan | Date: Oct 30, 2010 |

	Dear d24, The main interest has always been with family cruising and ease of handling. The 3/4 rig TS21 has a large main with a long and somewhat heavy cumbersome boom. To this end and with Richard Hartley's approval I designed the masthead rig for the TS21. Very shortly afterwards, Don Bottomley requested a stay sail for his newly completed masthead TS21. A matter of weeks later the TS18 enthusiasts requested a similar alternative for their boats. The surge in enthusiasm for the trailer sailers around that time led to the formation of the "Hartley 18-21 Assoc". In a surprisingly short space of time membership peaked at close to 200! Although much reduced in numbers, the now "Hartley TS 18-21 Yacht Club" is still very much a live and well. In mixed rig racing the masthead alternative is advantageous in stronger conditions. I guess exhilaration verses relaxation. Hoping this will help with your decision. Best wishes. Des Webb
By: Des Webb | Date: Oct 30, 2010 |

	A big thank you to all for the comments and feedback. It is great to know what we are doing is being enjoyed by so many people. To answer this one ... d24 said: ".... I would be interested to know whether you are going to rig your 21 as masthead or fractional and your reasons." Ours will be the perfect compromise between both. We will be having a 7/8 fractional rig made up for her. Not quite masthead, not quite the standard 3/4 fractional. I guess you could say the best of both worlds! She will also have a little stay sail (cutter style) in there too. The stay sail is another one of Des Webb's contributions and is reported to add near .5 of a knott increase in speed in some conditions. The addition of a stay sail, which is normally only for a masthead rig, has proved a very popular add-on for both TS18 and TS21 owners for many years now. A modest 450mm fixed bowsprit to connect the 3/4 asymmetric spinnaker will complete our planned rig configuration. We have a variety of reasons for choosing this rig of which will be fully detailed in our Mast, Sails & Outboard Motor section when we get to it. We will be trailering her to Cooloola Cove, just north of Brizzie to where Mr Des Webb will be supervising this rig fitment and final 'tidying up' of things in person ... the man himself!!! Under full sail I imagine she is set to look rather spectacular. Best regards Peter
By: Peter | Date: Oct 29, 2010 | MyTrailerSailer

	She is coming along very nicely. You should be proud. We have a TS18 with split wooden spars and sails I'd swear date back to the first fleet. We are replacing the lot. I would be interested to know whether you are going to rig your 21 as masthead or fractional and your reasons. Thanks
By: d24 | Date: Oct 28, 2010 |

	What a fantastic idea !! Very interesting project. Can't wait to see it finished. Very well presented.
By: Janeese | Date: Oct 24, 2010 |

	Nice work with building your boat and nicely presented. The Hartley is a solid traditional trailer sailer but if people are considering contructing a trailable yacht, which is a big and expensive undertaking, they should look at newer designs/plans. The Hartley boats are outdated by todays standards but still great sailing boats. Thanks
By: Bill | Date: Oct 11, 2010 |

	Dear Sir/Madam, I would like to commend you on your construction of the 50th anniversary "trailer sailer". It is so wonderful to see a lovely small boat like this being built with so much care and attention. As a person who was introduced to sailing in a "trailer sailer" my fondness for the Hartley's has never diminished. We now own a Cheoy Lee Pedrick 43 but never pass up on the opportunity to sail a "trailer sailer" when the opportunity comes along. Thank you Sue Sydney, Australia
By: Sue | Date: Oct 1, 2010 |

	Wow, you done heaps of progress since I was here last. Looking awesome, way to go. Here is another vid from you tube bout the Bay to Bay race for trailer sailers which I have been in. It is seriously unreal. It would be way cool if the 50th annivesary trailer sailer was to enter. If you need crew let me know. I am pretty good. Brad
By: Brad | Date: Sep 24, 2010 |

	Turning over the TS16, 18, 21 and Water Line 21 was achieved with the help of half a dozen or so willing friends and neighbours. We simply carried the upturned hull from the garage to the lawn. With a couple of strategically placed cushions or pillows, we simply rolled "her" over. That is when we lived in Victoria. At the time of shifting to the newly created suburb of Cooloola Village, now "Cove", Queensland, the population was very sparse. Our house there is a high set design. The garage underneath is fully enclosed, brick construction with 10' headroom. I lofted the frames of my latest design, the "Waterway 23", on the concrete floor. On reaching "turn over" time I erected an R.S.J. over the mid section of the hull. A 1 ton chain hoist and traveller were mounted on the R.S.J.. A medium thick rope was tied around the hull at maximum beam. The hook from the chain hoist, fixed to one side of hull and slowly raised until opposite side of the hull clear of the floor. At this point a piano trolley was placed under the gunwhale and the hull was slid across the floor to opposite side and gently lowered the other way up. The procedure was easily achieved single handedly. After interior fit-out was accomplished, the "turn over" was repeated twice more for dynal sheathing and painting, back to upright. Although I managed this single handedly and in minutes each time, for safety my wife and friend stood by as observers. There have been countless other occasions, i.e., installing centre case, plate, lead ballast, outboard motors etc when the gantry and chain hoist have been invaluable. Since then I've had a large purpose built shed with 13' headroom and drive-thru facility built. The gantry is now permanently installed and the boat can be located at any point below for lifting operations. Best wishes Des Webb
By: Des Webb | Date: Sep 23, 2010 |

	Great looking boat, congratulations. I have been thinking about building something similar but the Hartley 21 looks a particularly nice boat. I would be interested in your all up materials costings. I like the way you have photographed, filmed and written about your progress. Even I can follow every stage. Neat work there and people like me really appreciate it. Clive
By: Clive | Date: Sep 22, 2010 |

	I for one second DP's comment. You don't want to go around changing things too much and changing the keel would be a real gamble. It looks great to me the way it is just as the designer intended it. Thank you.
By: Simon | Date: Sep 21, 2010 |

	For Troy: I disagree with you. The swing keel they have constructed is the swing keel designed for the boat they are building. Could it be improved upon? Yes it could but you could easily get it wrong and ruin the boats sailing characteristics. The keel design, size, shape and its location is the result of precise calculations. So what if it is a basic rudimentary steel plate - the simpler the better for small yachts. I would only change something like this if a qualified Navel architect designed the changes or if the Hartley designers themselves approved it. They have widened the keel plate to 20mm from what they say on this site, so this means they have gone over double the designed width = double the designed keel plate weight. This I think will be a plus on the side of stability and increase rightability but possibly a minus on the side of performance. It would be the only change I would consider making myself if I was building one of these boats. I take my hat off to them. Their boat is looking like being a beautiful example of the classic trailer sailer. Well done to them. Thanks D.P.
By: David Pine | Date: Sep 19, 2010 |

	Great work on your boat she is looking awesome. But I reckon you should have thought about the swing keel system at bit more. The original old design keel box/plate has some serious draw backs. If I was you I would seriously consider the pro's and con's of making a change now before it goes any further. I will email you a design known to be perfect for these size boats. You could still incorporate it without too much effort. You will find it well worth it in my opinion, and you will go a fraction faster on near all points. It is a safer set up but you won't turn (swivel) on the plate as fast. That is a great shine with your paint job. Altex paints eh, I'm going to give them a try next time. Keep up the great work. Troy SYDNEY
By: Troy | Date: Sep 14, 2010 |

	Hi BigBreeze, yes that youtube clip of Kari at the Tamer Valley classic is the same pictured on this site. It is one of the best looking TS 18s around... possibly until Grampsie II is released in all its glory... The way it is going it is certainly going to challange for the title in my opinion. Great work guys,... and that paint finish is blindingly good. ;-) Cheers dbs
By: David | Date: Sep 9, 2010 | Hartley TS

	About big sails. Thanks Bill The Hartley 18 footer "Chuckles" has a bowsprit and carries a big asymetric kite. However it is not a TS18 nor is it a TS. It is significantly heavier with a somewhat wider beam and deeper draft, and carries more sail. It is always interesting too see the changes people try out on their boats. There are some light boats and boats with non-standard spars and sail plans. However the purpose of the class rules is to maintain the one-class aspect of the design. A modified boat that doesn't conform to class rules will have to get its own handicap assessment in order to race. It will probably be classed by YA as a "modified trailer yacht". Of course this is not an issue for owners who just want to cruise, have muck-about fun or test the boundaries. However please be aware of the TS18-21 recommendations for floatation.
By: John Milne | Date: Sep 5, 2010 |

	Bill, you talk bout Hartleys getting on the plane. I found this vid on youtube.com. It is a TS18 called Kari which I think is the same one in the pictures on this site. You have to wait until the end of the video. Hartley's can fly like the wind, no other trailer sailer designed for family cruising and overnighting can touch em. BigBreeze
By: BigBreeze | Date: Aug 24, 2010 |

	Thanks John for the reply. I will be building new, this little baby will be all mine from start to finish but I don't doubt there are big time and money benefits in refurbishing a previouly owned boat. Excellent idea about the building stock. Thanks. The Hartleys have Symmetric kites as standard. But an Asymmetric kite is flown without a spinnaker pole and can be hauled in and used as a monster genoa. They usualy connect from a prod or long bow sprit some ways out in front. The only reason I ask is the beamy flat bottom of the 18 I would imagine would get them up and planing easily. Thank you Bill
By: Bill | Date: Aug 24, 2010 |

	for Bill. The TS18 carries an asymmetric spinnaker as standard. It's shown in the plans and the max sail dimensions and length for the pole is set by the class rules. See Hartley TS18-21 Club web site. The TS18 rig may be 3/4 style or masthead. The latter carries a significantly bigger spinnaker. Building time - suggest start with a second hand boat and you'll probably be on the water by summer. If building I suggest you make the building stock from steel as it is just the right size to convert into your trailer - just add keel rollers, low caravan suspension, brakes lights and draw bar. Also start with a heavier centre plate as MTS has done. It can be between 9 and 20 mm. A 20mm plate will provide much of the recommended extra ballast. Performance comparison - you may get some anecdotal comments which will be beset with variables beyond the design, including rig set-up, sail handling, sailing experience, tactics etc. From a technical viewpoint I can't see much difference between boats of the same length, weight and sail area. Some classes may be lighter with more sail and less wetted area but they will also probably be less stable, have less interior space etc. But then if you are after that extra half knot then go for it. Design is always a compromise. A TS18 in a 20 knot breeze is a hell of a lot of fun.
By: John Milne | Date: Aug 24, 2010 |

	What is the average man hours involved in building a Hartley TS18? I am currently weighing up a few short list choices with the 18 at the top. I would be interested to hear from TS18 owners about the performance of theirs when up against more contemporary designs and whether you can run an asymmetric kite off the standard rig. Thank you Bill
By: Bill | Date: Aug 24, 2010 |

	WOW, no lame tech speak. A super gigantic thanks from me for your web site info. I am starting to build a Hartley ts16 with my uncle. It is our first boat building ever. The plans look exactly like yours except smaller. It looks to me everything documented here we can use except on a smaller scale. That's totally a great help to us. TJ
By: Troy Jennings | Date: Aug 17, 2010 |

	We built a 17' Pocket Cruiser back 8 years ago and used dynal matting with epoxy to sheath the hull. It didn't yield the strength nor abrasion protection I was expecting. After five years of hard knocks resulting in cracks, splits and scuff marks water began to penetrate through in more than one place which resulted in rot starting to take hold. I took the hull back to bare ply and replaced rotted ply sections and two frame sections. This exercise is not for the faint hearted let me tell you. This time I sheathed the hull using 200 gram biaxial glass and forked out for the good stuff epoxy, west system. I read this is the same or similar set up to you. Boy what a difference. The hull is one mutha load tougher and stronger than it ever was before. I was stretched financially when I was building her and went with cheap options. It ended up costing me a hell of a lot more time and money. My lesson learnt. I hope this helps others. Thank you Craig PERTH
By: Craig | Date: Aug 16, 2010 |

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